You forgot the most likely outcome: (d automatically reject the story because it contains poetry.
Lemme guess. The scene from your story goes:
Shirley said, "What're you doing?"
"I'm reading a poem by W. H. Auden," Babs replied.
"Read it out loud."
[8-line stanza of poetry.]
"Enough," Shirley cried out. "Christ, no wonder poetry is a dead art form."
I went to the web to see how long Ezra Pound had been dead. My first stop was this site, where I clicked on the first poem which is called "A Girl." But instead of the poem I got a bitter rant from the site owner complaining that the Ezra Pound estate had asked him to remove the poem. I clicked on the second poem and got the same thing. Apparently this guy set up a site devoted to Ezra Pound's poems, and the site now has no poems. I predict he busts into the law offices of the Ezra Pound estate's lawyers any day now and blows everyone away with a sawed-off shotgun.
I then went to another site and found another list of Pound's poems. I clicked on "A Girl" and the poem appeared (here), along with three incredibly insightful comments. So apparently, either the Pound people are selective about which sites print their guy's poems, or they haven't found this site yet.
The poem, by the way, is about a girl turning into a tree. I think fair use rules allow me to print one line of it:
The branches grow out of me, like arms.
Heavy stuff. Maybe you should go with Edgar Allen Poe.
I think his stuff is in the public domain, and his stuff is for adults. Think about it.
You might also try what I recommend to people who want to use song lyrics:
write your own. For instance, here's a line of poetry you can use:
The chimney grows out of me, like a zit on my scalp.
That's from a poem I just wrote about a guy turning into a house.
You'll want to ascribe it to a poet. I recommend making up a name.
It should have three syllables, as the best American poets
(Robert Frost, Carl Sandburg, Ogden Nash, Ezra Pound) do.
Go with Prig Williams.
Another strategy is to worry about this after someone expresses
interest in buying the story.
22 comments:
LOL
Ah. Thank you. My Monday morning laugh.
Yes, I do know some editors might reject stories which contain poetry. People like that would probably reject this story for other reasons if I took the poetry out. I don't mind getting rejected. I'd rather not get sued.
And I do write my own poetry, but in the context it's important that these are actual and well-known poems. One of that main characters is an English major. (If Garrison Keillor can create popular dramas about English majors, some of the rest of us can surely try...)
c
Definitely. We get this at GUD all the time.
"Definitely " is a lovely decisive statement, but to what are you referring?
c
1 8-line stanza apiece from 4-stanza poems by W.H. Auden and Louis MacNeice
Is that a quarter of a poem?? If so, you can't argue fair use on that.
Hob about d) find some suitable poems in public domain?
Buffy and Xenith are so right.
Once before I wrote about getting the opportunity to write a book chapter with 3 coworkers. We had over 50 graphs and tables and each one required a permission from the primary author or a certificate of public domain. These were "To Whom It May Concern" letters.
THIMC: This (name thing) is in the public domain as evidenced by (and then the citation), Sincerely (signature in ink)
We had 500 references for that article. I checked every one for accuracy and permissions. That included rereading the articles just to be sure the context was right. Tedious.
That's called really tedious, amazingly tedious and tediously tedious for weeks on end nothing but tedious. And now you know why publications don't want to do that work. Most times you get back a request for more $$ money than you got in your checking account.
Song lyrics are worse than quotes.
I believe that the rule is that the maximum you can quote without legal permission is 3 lines. I shall forward this to a friend of mine (the retired British Museum curator) who just published a book on dogs and wanted to quote a poem I found for her, Robert Frost's "Canis Major."
http://www.americanpoems.com/poets/robertfrost/12145
Although this was a scholarly book published by the museum press, they still wanted more money for using it than the BMP was willing to pay. So I think she just quoted three lines as an epigraph.
She may have current information on what is and isn't allowed--unless all that was handled by the BMP.
In 1981, the movie HEAVY METAL was released and all my rock druggie friends and I went to see it. It was magnificent. The first animated movie in years.
Wikipedia has this about the song rights:
Apparently, the production company's use of the songs was limited to the theatrical release and soundtracks alone, and didn't extend to the video release of the film. Rights negotiations took over 15 years to resolve, and the official home video release didn't debut until 1996.
15 years - WOW that must have been fun! And the 1996 version has several songs that were never in the original movie and at least two songs in the original version have been dropped because the artists wanted mucho $$$ (like $1 per DVD or tape)...
So as EE says - write your own songs.
I can recall the mess a friend of mine went through getting permissions to use a Carlos Santana song for a play they were doing. They got permission with much difficulty from Mr. Santana via lawyers and much sweet talking. (I gather it was highly unusual, but they were a non-profit theatrical group and he must have been in a good mood to boot!)
And poetry is a difficult thing to quote without stepping on copyright. so if you quote, make sure it's public domain. That means translations, too. So no Rumi from copyrighted translations, either.
EE and BuffySquirrel, on a related note (esp. BuffySquirrel who said C), how much editing do lit journals do for short stories? Is there a back and forth for edits or, if a piece looks like it needs edits, is a journal more likely to pass than a book editor?
In this person's specific case, why would it be automatic rejection instead of "can you take this out if you don't have permission"?
Thanks!
The chimney grows out of me, like a zit on my scalp.
That's from a poem I just wrote about a guy turning into a house.
You'll want to ascribe it to a poet. I recommend making up a name.
You made my morning. (OK, I'm a day late...you made my Tuesday morning).
While we're on the subject of using "quotes", what about the quotes at the beginning of novels?
I have two quotes I want to use, one from song lyrics, one from a humorist (deceased). Is it the three line rule, or do I need permission to use? And I assume I don't mention this until, as you mentioned, someone decides they want to represent my novel, right?
From http://www.copyright.gov/fls/fl102.html
FAIR USE
One of the rights accorded to the owner of copyright is the right to reproduce or to authorize others to reproduce the work in copies or phonorecords. This right is subject to certain limitations found in sections 107 through 118 of the Copyright Act (title 17, U. S. Code). One of the more important limitations is the doctrine of “fair use.” Although fair use was not mentioned in the previous copyright law, the doctrine has developed through a substantial number of court decisions over the years. This doctrine has been codified in section 107 of the copyright law.
Section 107 contains a list of the various purposes for which the reproduction of a particular work may be considered “fair,” such as criticism, comment, news reporting, teaching, scholarship, and research. Section 107 also sets out four factors to be considered in determining whether or not a particular use is fair:
the purpose and character of the use, including whether such use is of commercial nature or is for nonprofit educational purposes;
the nature of the copyrighted work;
amount and substantiality of the portion used in relation to the copyrighted work as a whole; and
the effect of the use upon the potential market for or value of the copyrighted work.
The distinction between “fair use” and infringement may be unclear and not easily defined. There is no specific number of words, lines, or notes that may safely be taken without permission. Acknowledging the source of the copyrighted material does not substitute for obtaining permission.
The 1961 Report of the Register of Copyrights on the General Revision of the U.S. Copyright Law cites examples of activities that courts have regarded as fair use: “quotation of excerpts in a review or criticism for purposes of illustration or comment; quotation of short passages in a scholarly or technical work, for illustration or clarification of the author's observations; use in a parody of some of the content of the work parodied; summary of an address or article, with brief quotations, in a news report; reproduction by a library of a portion of a work to replace part of a damaged copy; reproduction by a teacher or student of a small part of a work to illustrate a lesson; reproduction of a work in legislative or judicial proceedings or reports; incidental and fortuitous reproduction, in a newsreel or broadcast, of a work located in the scene of an event being reported.”
Copyright protects the particular way an author has expressed himself; it does not extend to any ideas, systems, or factual information conveyed in the work.
The safest course is always to get permission from the copyright owner before using copyrighted material. The Copyright Office cannot give this permission.
When it is impracticable to obtain permission, use of copyrighted material should be avoided unless the doctrine of “fair use” would clearly apply to the situation. The Copyright Office can neither determine if a certain use may be considered “fair” nor advise on possible copyright violations. If there is any doubt, it is advisable to consult an attorney.
FL-102, Revised July 2006
(Section 107 is at http://www.copyright.gov/title17/92chap1.html#107 but it's covered by the above description.)
Obviously #1 doesn't work in favour of quotes in novels. I'm not sure what #2 is about.
Nuking the song lyrics is probably the best way to go though
The distinction between “fair use” and infringement may be unclear and not easily defined. There is no specific number of words, lines, or notes that may safely be taken without permission. Acknowledging the source of the copyrighted material does not substitute for obtaining permission.
--Taken from US copyright site
Because of the defendant's burden of proof, some copyright owners frequently make claims of infringement even in circumstances where the fair use defense would likely succeed in hopes that the user will refrain from the use rather than spending resources in his defense. This type of lawsuit is part of a much larger problem in First Amendment law; see Strategic lawsuit against public participation.
Because paying a royalty fee may be much less expensive than having a potential copyright suit threaten the publication of a completed work in which a publisher has invested significant resources, many authors may seek a license even for uses that copyright law ostensibly permits without liability.
--Taken from Wikipedia's article on Fair Use
Personally, I get nothing from quotes at the beginning of novels. Not having read the book, I have no idea why it's relevant. And I can't recall ever finishing a book and then going back to the first page to revisit a quote. I always just close the book. However, it's not uncommon for novels to use quotes so to be safe, seek permission. Or make up your own quote and attribute it to your main character.
Or make up your own quote and attribute it to your main character.
This is an advantage in writing SF, fantasy or alt history -- you can quote from books or poems or songs that don't even exist.
At GUD, we do as much editing as we think the piece needs. Often we the copy-editors complain that the issue editors don't take into account the amount of editing needed when they select their pieces. On the other hand, when the issue editor is one of the copy-editors, they are somewhat inclined to think they can fix marginal pieces in the editing.
It's always a to-and-fro between the copy-editors and the authors, and sometimes we have to get the issue editor involved as well. The amount of to-and-fro and how it's handled varies from piece to piece. Some authors are happy to give the copy-editor a free hand; others want to fight you for every comma.
When I'm selecting pieces, the amount of editing required is definitely a factor. If I run into a lot of homophone errors, then I start leaning towards rejection--the whole "if the author doesn't care why should I?" obstacle. But if I find myself designing the edit I want (move this paragraph to here, tighten up that sentence....), that's probably an indication that I'm leaning towards selecting that piece.
The clincher can sometimes be, though, have I worked with this author before? how easy were they to work with? Anything that flags up "unprofessional author" is a huge strike against a piece, and including someone else's copyrighted work is about as big an unprofessional flag as you can get. It says "you don't want to work with this person; they don't know what they're doing".
We get far more stuff than we can use.
Thanks, BuffySquirrel. Very helpful!
Actually, the third quote I want to use does come from my main character. Hmmmm.
One of Buffy's sentence should be remembered: We get far more stuff than we can use.
It's easier to reject a story for anything when you have easy access to a multitude of stories.
And another thing, when I used to write technical articles and research papers, the technical editor might ask for changes (either more data or a different type of graph or a rearrangement of the paragraphs). This was a matter of usually a brief discussion with the technical editor.
However, I never had access to the Copy Editor. Those guys (man or woman, I never knew.) just did their work and that was it. And to tell the truth, Unless the Copy Editor really screwed up, which never happened, I never saw the need to talk to them.
Even with internal reviewers, either I knew the reviewers personally or I picked them as knowledgeable in the particular field. They never got arguments from me. Most of the time, their comments improved the paper or left it the same. My thoughts are if I picked the reviewers who acted like editors, why argue with them?
I've had an editor ask for deletions changes and I made the changes. I won't tell you which publication. It wasn't that big of a deal. However, technical and research papers are a whole lot different than Fiction. Even making the changes in fiction might not meet the editors needs or wants. SO it's sort of a crap shoot for the editor and author.
I think people need bear one thing in mind about editors, It's the editor's publication and they publish what they want to publish. That's why they all say "read the stories" because then you can write a story for them. If the editor wants Crime Fiction and you give him/her SciFi, you will surely be rejected. It they want Steampunk, give them Steampunk. If they want historical romance, then that's what you as a writer have to send to that editor.
I misremembered my archaeologist friend's experience. Here's what she replied:
No, I didn't go through this with the Frost poem, and neither did BMP. You are confusing the issue with the fact that we were unable to use a Gary Larson cartoon (not because they wanted too much money, but because they would not permit its use at all, probably because the half-witted picture-researcher gave them a false impression of the kind of book).
In the case of Frost's Canis Maior, I simply used two lines. Teresa advised me that that would come under 'fair use', and so no permission was sought. The source was acknowledged, of course.
I don't think it is worth my adding a comment correcting yours - it doesn't make much difference. But really, the publishers should know about this and be able to advise.
I happen to like epigraphs at the beginning of novels, as chapter headings, or introducing segments of books. Some authors I like that do it are Mary Stewart, Nora Roberts, and Reginald Hill. But they are usually careful to use long-ago writers.
XLN Q&A, I must say!!
Meri
Thanks. I'm glad to find this out before trying to submit the story... Writtenwyrdd, thanks for the pointer about translations. I am guessing that it would be OK to paraphrase a copyrighted translation of a public-domain work in an unknown language--keep the basic idea/image but rework the language?
Post a Comment